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Worried about toxicity of metal electrodes

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:34 am
by rock69
Hi all :)

I'm pretty much worried about using iontophoresis for my HH because of the risks of introducing toxic metals in my body.

The electrodes are usually made of aluminum or stainless steel.

In the case of aluminum, it is known that it is a toxic metal, and there have been even hypothetical links to Alzeihmer and multiple sclerosis!

As for stainless steel, it contains chromium. Now the problem with chromium is that it is highly dangerous in its hexavalent form. How do we know that such ions are not produced and absorbed through the hands?

Here is an interesting link by the way:

http://www.news4press.com/1/MeldungDruc ... _ID=415395

Any experts on this issue?

Rock

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:10 am
by admin
Very interesting post rock69.

I am no expert on this, but if that were the case for steel, what about the dangers of cooking meals in stainless steel? At least with iontophoresis, there is a cloth over the electrodes, and your hands or feet are not in direct contact with the electrodes.

Also, what about people who work in aluminium and steel factories? Have they been known to have major health issues?

What about people who drink water treated with aluminum sulfate and aluminum fluoride?

Are there other materials such as platinum that can be used for the electrodes instead?

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:41 am
by rock69
Well, the difference here is that we are applying a current though the metal electrodes and therefore initiating possible electrolysis reactions.

So this is a pretty much different context with respect to using those same metals for everyday cooking and so on.

I hope we can get some more info on this. It shouldn't be overlooked.


Rock

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:54 am
by admin
Doesn't heating also cause electron movement in metals just like passing electricity through metals?

Having the towels over the electrodes during iontophoresis (and therefore not having the electrodes in direct contact with the feet) surely makes some difference even if this is electrolysis.

So why do you think that heating aluminum/stainless steel (chromium) pans that directly touch the food that we eat is any less dangerous? Just because electrolysis is more dangerous than heating?

Also, what about when you microwave a steel or iron container with food in it? Is that a different type of electron movement to heating or electricity?

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:00 pm
by admin
Reading through that article in more detail, I can't make out what part of it refers to full body spa baths and what part of it refers to iontophoresis treatment of sweaty hands and/or feet. Can anyone elaborate?

Response from an assistant engineering professor

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:48 pm
by admin
I got the below response e-mailed to me from an assistant engineering professor who has a PhD and who designs homemade iontophoresis machines:

This is something that I have researched but have not come up with a definitive answers. I am not sure of the side effects of AL and stainless steel. They are used in everyday products but that doesn't mean electrolysis may not induce the metals into the skin. Perhaps the safest metal to use is iron, I can find no side effects of iron, at least taken in at such a small level that would be caused by iontophoresis:

http://www.natural-health-information-c ... /iron.html .

In fact is may be even be good for you. I suppose an iron skillet would work, also a little rust in the water would probably increase the conductivity of the water.

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:31 am
by admin
Another response from Markus, who sells Hidrex:

i read it thru, iontophoresis is not a spa bath !!!! a spa bath uses + and - in the same tray and + and - are closed together, ther eis not much distance: this causes in corrosion of every material thats why the electrodes have to be changed

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:03 am
by admin
rock, I suppose you no longer visit this thread.

In case you do, do you think chromium levels would show up in blood or urine tests if done a few hours after treatment?

FYI -- I talked with someone who has a phd in biochemistry, and he thought that this issue was not something to really be concerned about.

Firstly, there are two types of Hexavalent Chromium, and we have to be sure that this is the type VI one that is dangerous.

He also thought that it is unlikely that even five percent of the chromium in the stainless steel electrodes would be emitted via electrolysis reaction over the lifetime of the machine. i.e., over 95 percent of it would not even leak out.

Anyway, I still plan to get a blood or urine test a few hours after treatment one day to satiate my curiosity.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:56 am
by yuba bill
I have seen the analysis of Silver electrodes. An electron microscope had to be used to quantify any erosion.
I think you can rest easy.

Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:23 am
by rock69
administrator wrote:rock, I suppose you no longer visit this thread.

In case you do, do you think chromium levels would show up in blood or urine tests if done a few hours after treatment?

FYI -- I talked with someone who has a phd in biochemistry, and he thought that this issue was not something to really be concerned about.

Firstly, there are two types of Hexavalent Chromium, and we have to be sure that this is the type VI one that is dangerous.

He also thought that it is unlikely that even five percent of the chromium in the stainless steel electrodes would be emitted via electrolysis reaction over the lifetime of the machine. i.e., over 95 percent of it would not even leak out.

Anyway, I still plan to get a blood or urine test a few hours after treatment one day to satiate my curiosity.



You can do the blood tests for aluminum for sure. I don't know about chromium but I think it should be possible in a normal laboratory. Anyway I'm not taking any chances any longer. I've quit doing iontophoresis and the reason I started this thread was on account of an optic neuritis that I've been dealing with. I did some research here in Italy and it seems there's an emergent strong correlation here between toxic metals and nerve degeneration (particularly aluminum and mercury). Now I did quite an amount of iontophoresis treatments with aluminum electrodes and that certainly scares me. So now I'm going to do EDTA chelation therapy and see just how much of this stuff I have accumulated in my body.

Coincidentally guys, while doing my research, I happened to discover that heavy metal intoxication brings about, among other things, excessive sweating (particularly mercury). So perhaps our bodies have been burdened with this crap all this time and now (the irony! ... no pun intended) is that we've entered a vicious circle and perhaps we're adding to the already significant amount of metal we have.

I'm not saying hyperhidrosis is connected to heavy metal intoxication but it seems plausible and it's worth checking (just a simple test). Here's what I've discovered. Some people have low levels of glutathione in their blood so they can't excrete certain toxins rapidly enought, therefore these deposit in many tissues in our body, like the brain for instance.

If you want to do a quick check to see if that's the case, just do a normal copper/zinc ratio blood test. If the zinc concentration is 10 times higher then you're OK, otherwise something's wrong and you'd better check further. What does "checking further" mean? You can't expect anything from a normal blood test unless the intoxication has just occurred. The metals leave the blood circulation pretty soon and deposit in the tissues (or are excreted), so there's only one way to find out. You have to undergo a "challenge test". For instance with EDTA. Just one chelation, and you check urine samples BEFORE and AFTER chelation and see what changes. Then you know for sure if you're intoxicated.

Where could you get intoxicated in the first place, you may be wondering? Here's a short but by no means exhaustive list:

Paints
Dental amalgams (strong source!)
Vaccines (on account of thimerosal)
Aluminum foils
Cans
Cookware

It's all around us! Guys, check this out. It's pretty simple and I think it's worth it. Maybe this has been our problem all along and we don't need symptomatic cures any longer. Maybe (just maybe) this is the very root of the problem.

I'll keep you updated.

Take care.

Rock

P.S.

PLEASE DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR ALL THIS INFORMATION. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH ON THE INTERNET. CROSS CHECK. AND LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU FIND OUT. KNOWLEDGE IS THE DISEASE'S WORST ENEMY, AND OUR BEST ALLY.

Concerns raised in 1987

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:37 pm
by admin
rock69, thanks for another great post.

Here are two letters I found from 1987 regarding this issue:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/m72 ... pdf?page=1

Response:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u7p ... pdf?page=1


And here is something more recent from May 2008:

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10 ... .2008.0075

Wonder how the spa bath differs from iontophoresis for hyperhidrosis.

One more

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:38 pm
by admin

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:43 am
by rock69
It looks like I'm intoxicated all right! I've just undergone my first chelation therapy with EDTA. Results are due in a few days. Will let you know.

The doctor I'm going to here in Italy is a certified ACAM specialist. In the meantime, he's given me a few supplements to take.

Lipoibeg-R (produced here in italy): basically alphalipoic acid, coenzyme q-10, glutathione, vitamin C, vitamin E, vitamin D, all the B vitamins, Zinc

Omega-3: I'm taking Enerzone Omega-3 Rx capsules (1 g) (he says it's the most "loaded")

The funnt thing is that, ever since taking omega-3 (before the chelation), my hyperhidrosis has improved remarkably! Practically disappeared. I don't know if it's a coincidence or what to make of it. I was hoping that the detox would get rid of my problems including the hyperhidrosis, but apparently the omega-3 (high dosage) is taking care of that already.

Guys, investigate. It's worth it.

I am a firm believier in Linus Pauling's work (orthomolecular medicine). It was Pauling's conviction that when something goes wrong in an organism, the causes are basically the following:

1 - Genetic flaw
2 - Structural damage (such as in an accident)
3 - Lack of one or more essential molecules (vitamins, minerals, etc...)
4 - Presence of one or more "wrong" substances (toxins, heavy metals, and so on).

Makes sense to me.

Now, ruling out structural damage in our case, there may be a genetic defect in the sense that we don't excrete toxins sufficiently well, but what I realy believe is that for us it all boils down to options 3 and 4 (possibly a combination). I am sick and tired of "symptomatic cures" like iontophoresis or botulin (which are likely toxic by the way!). I want to know the root of this problem, and possibly cure it once and for all! And I think we should start believing that either we're lacking something or we have too much of something that shouldn't be there (or both!), and hunt it down until we find it.

Will keep you up-to-date.

Rock

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:01 am
by admin
rock, another very interesting post from you.

I will try the Omega 3s. I am a vegetarian and rarely eat flax seed so maybe I am Omega 3 deficient.

I am also planning to get a blood or urine test in early December to check my chromium levels and will post results here. I will make sure to do several days of iontophoresis treatments before the tests.

Response from Dr. Zierer

Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:38 pm
by admin
I got the following response from Dr. Zierer, who wrote one of the articles I posted earlier warning against using steel electrodes:

=============


Good afternoon,

I am responding to your question whether iontophoresis done thru electrodes consisting of stainless steel or aluminium i.e. steel consisting in major parts of iron, chromium and nickel, might be harmful for both, users and personnel handling the equipment. I appreciate if you post my answer on your forum.

I am a MD (GP), PhD (biochemistry) MSc (pharmacology) with an 8-year-long-experience on metals from occupational medicine in galvano factories.

Based on scientific studies stainless steel can be regared as harmful devices, i.e. electrodes in iontophoresis or galvano-spa-bath. Both medical devices are based on the same electro-chemical laws.

With pure, medical aluminium it is a different thing. But ít must be pure aluminium (99,999% w/w)

Due to the electro-chemical reactions at the anode (positive part) metals in toxic states are released from the solid electrode and introduced into the body of the user. Those reactions are extensively used in galvano-chemistry and metallurgy for coating metal and plastic parts of engines with chromium, in order to harden the surface of the engine parts.

The skin of hands, i.d. palmar and plantar comprises approximately 2000 eccrine glands per 1 square centimetre producing exclusively the sweat. The skin is –in general – negatively charged, therefore the positively charged metals released from the anode-electrode are forced through the channel of the glands into the epidermis of the skin and further into the blood stream by electro-chemical laws.

There are tons of studies on workers having been exposed to chromium, nickel, cadmium platinium etc. many studies have shown the hazard effect of such metals on the health of the workers, starting in 1904 with a medical report from New York City (USA) describing toxic contact dermatitis at the hands of workers, who put their fingers in a bath containing platinium salts for development of a photography.

There is a recent study published in German language where my colleague, Margareta Griesz-Brisson, MD neurology, (http://www.hkmed.de/Body/BD-Studie.pdf) discovered high concentrations of metals in the urine of patients after treatment with electrodes consisting of stainless steel electrodes. She quantified the amount of 34 different metals starting with lead (Pb) thru uranium (U). Blank urine, i.e. urine without electro-chemical exposure, did not show chromium (Cr), nickel (Ni), iron (Fe) or the rest of the metals. The concentration of the individual metals was higher than 20 microgram/liter urine – which is dangerously high. In contrast I found chromium concentration in workers from galvano-factories with an average chromium concentration of 7 microgram / liter urine.

Dr Griesz-Brisson MD used the electrodes of body detox LTD from Switzerland. Those electrodes are almost completely “dissolved” after approximately 30 hours of electrolysis – or 60 cycles of treatment.

With regard to aluminium please notice that the results on aluminium and Alzheimer are highly controversial. There is no scientific result showing a connection between aluminium and mental deficiencies. Further, salts of aluminium are used in several medications for treatment of gastritis. Aluminium salts are used as enhancers in immunological reactions in humans – although this is controversial due to production of side effects at the site of injection (e.g. myofaciitis of the musculus deloides of the upper arm-shoulder, with production of crystals of aluminium within the individual muscle cell). Therefore the German army is not using medications for immunization containing aluminium.

In conclusion one should avoid electrodes consisting of stainless steel for using in iontophoresis due to the possible induction of dermatitis and cancer. Iontophoresis and galvano-spa-bath are using almost the same electrical current.

Aluminium has a positive effect for treatment of hyperhydrosis palmaris et plantaris, If it is pure aluminium (which can be shown by multi chemical analysis, e.g. quadro-mass-spectroscopy) one cannot see any toxicological problem, based on the medical knowledge of 2009. For reasons of quality one should ask for a chemical analysis on the 20 major metals, i.e., impurities, of “pure aluminium”. To my knowledge such a multi-chemical analysis should not cost more than 200 EURO comprising the most relevant metals.

Electrodes made of pure zinc (99,999%), such as “detoxator”, are helping in the same way but might be better than aluminium, because zinc has well known positive healing effect on the epidermis of the skin. Further to that zinc is a poison for dermato-fungi and bacteria, preventing athletes foot.


best wishes


Zierer